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My life as journaled

Because I'm boring like that


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Lost my glasses

I always wondered as a kid how some people could say "I lost my glasses." How do you lose them? They're on your face!

Well, today my glasses weren't on my face. I wanted to wear contacts because I was singing a solo in church (yes, I am vain enough to want to wear contacts when I'm standing up there), but we were running late this morning. So I threw the contact case in my purse, and put my contacts in after we got to church and I practiced my song. So, my glasses went into my purse, because I had nowhere else to put them.

Every time I took something out of my purse today, I had to move my glasses out of the way. "Good," I thought to myself, "they're still there."

Until we got home tonight. I'm about to take my contacts out, I open up my purse.... and no glasses. I emptied it out and they're not there. I must have taken them out at one point to get to something else....and then forgotten to put them back in.

I hope I left them at church so I can get them back. As it is, I will have to wear my contacts every day this week (I don't like wearing them to work), and that's going to slow down my morning routine significantly.

Of course, church today was all about the sovereignty of God - He has everything planned out before time. So I guess He planned for me to lose my glasses, and something about this situation will be for the good.

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lil_cherub March 26th, 2007
Contacts take some time to get used to. When I first got them, I hardly wore them and it took so much longer to put in. Now, its under a minute. You'll get used to it.

When you say God has everything planned out before time, do you mean the large events in your life (career, marriage, children) or the little things (lunch menu, traffic light being green) in life too?

anitra March 26th, 2007
I know I'm getting faster at putting them in, I'm more annoyed because my eyes get so irritated when I have my contacts in and I'm staring at a computer screen.

When I say God has everything planned, I mean the little things, too.

lil_cherub March 26th, 2007
But if everything is planned for us, that mean we have no free will.

Are certain people suppose to become drug addicts, have their wife cheat on them, be gay, commit homicide/abortion, and etc? Why would God have murder in his plan, when he handed down the 10 commandments to Moses telling the world that murder is not allowed? What is the point of the rule if He ultimately decides our fate.

I feel like free will has to exist. If you believe people can be led astray from religion and lead an evil life, doesn't that imply that God gave them a choice in the matter? Once a child is of age, parents trust that the child can make decisions on their own. Why can't that be the case with religion. Jesus lets us decide on our own if we want to walk in his footsteps.

nightskyre March 26th, 2007
Sovereign Election is throughout the Bible. It is undeniable. If you want to look it up, I will point you to the following passages (off the top of my head. If you want more, let me know and I'll be happy to get them for you)

Ephesians 1:3-6
Ephesians 2:4-7 (or 8 or so)
Romans 6:22 (the word "enslaved" is even used here)
John 6:37

There are countless examples, Old Testament and New, that show God changing the will of people. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, for example. (Romans 9:17-18) (Ok, so I looked this one up)

We, as humans, have a different view of the world than God. The world exists to bring glory to God, not so we can live "fair lives".

If God saw fit to destroy the entire human race, (see Genesis 6) then not only would we deserve it, but it would be glorifying to God, because He is exercising His Sovereign justice. Of course, those people being destroyed wouldn't think it was fair, now would they?

lil_cherub March 26th, 2007
But there are plenty of places in the bible which support free will as well. Why would God command us to do/not do things if he ultimately had full control. And there are places where Gods tells us what to do if we want to be saved:
Act 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Certainly sounds like I have a choice in the matter. Most of the bible is a story book, used to teach pagans about God, history, laws, and morals. I believe God may control somethings, like who we are fated to meet and marry, and I believe he puts us all on the planet for a reason, so we have a purpose. However, I don't think God decides to micro manage every living creature.

I believe that our day to day life is our own path, and we have life milestones that we must meet. I believe God sets the milestones, and when we will eventually hit them.

I can see your point of view and I know of many verses to support it. I do know of a quote from the Bible where Gods tells [someone] that he knew him before he was born, which means He has control over our lives OR, he can at least see our future.

Without free will, I see no point in living. People could claim that they had no choice but to rob a bank because they had no free will. should be let them free from prison as a result?

anitra March 26th, 2007
God's sovereignty does not absolve us of responsibility for our actions. In other words, it appears to me that I can make any choice I want, and I will be held responsible for the choice I make, EVEN if it was fore-ordained by God.

I would also say that the passage you chose from Acts 2 does not necessarily indicate a free will. "All who [God causes to] call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

lil_cherub March 26th, 2007
So free will in an illusion? Is there any way to rebel against the master plan? How would we know if we are successful, or if our rebellion is part of the plan? Can we tell if we made the right choice... when we really only had one choice available to us? In that case, we should all live without any regrets, since we really had no choice in the matter.

Without free will we are flawed in our design, since we are born to be sinners. If God is all powerful and can control us all, shouldn't we be saints?

nightskyre March 26th, 2007
"In that case, we should all live without any regrets, since we really had no choice in the matter."

No.

Romans 3:5-18
"But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?
And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,
'There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.
Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,
The poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;
Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their paths,
And the path of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.'"

*********************************************

"Without free will we are flawed in our design, since we are born to be sinners. If God is all powerful and can control us all, shouldn't we be saints?"

No.

We are not flawed in design, we became flawed because of the fall of Adam and Eve.

Further, you, as well as most of the world, don't understand the fact that God created us for His glory. As I mentioned somewhere else in these threads, if it pleased Him to cast us into the pit of fire, whatever He says goes. The entire world can boil down to "Because I(God) want to" if you want to think about it that way, I suppose.

Ok, and?

nightskyre March 26th, 2007
Acts 2:21 is exactly what Jesus was talking about in John 6 (did you read the reference?)

John 6:37 (NASB)
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Let's break this down. "The one who comes to Me, I will certainly not cast out" So, this "one" comes to Jesus. It seems to me that the "one" is the same as the "whosoever"

"All that the Father gives Me"
If you look at the meaning of the greek verbs used here, it means "All, and only those." In order to give you a full exegetical examination of this verse, I need time and resources that I don't have at work.

God does orchestrate everything that happens. However, that does not remove our responsibility to respond positively to the grace that is given to us by God.

If God sets our milestones and when we hit them, what happens if we fall behind? Does God "adjust" (thereby suggesting that God made a mistake) His plan because we didn't live up to it?

The pride of man (and woman) leads us to refute the idea that our Sovereign God is Sovereign.

The answers to your questions don't lie in what I think or what you think. They lie in the Scriptures. No amount of logic that flies in the face of what is written in the Bible can be true.

The Bible is a story book like your school history book is a story book.

Re: Ok, and?

lil_cherub March 26th, 2007
If we have any responsibility to respond positively to anything, then we must have some degree of free will.

"What happens if we fall behind?"
How can God let us fall behind on our fate? If everything happens for a reason and everything is meant to be by the grace of God, then it's all happening right on schedule. How can we as humans suggest that God has made a mistake? Obviously, if its happening, then it must be the plan. Why can't we control how me get there, and God just make sure we arrive?






Re: Ok, and?

nightskyre March 26th, 2007
"If we have any responsibility to respond positively to anything, then we must have some degree of free will."

Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Romans 6:23a
"For the wages of sin is death"

So, all have sinned, and because of that, all deserve death. This doesn't say "those who sin deserve death." In fact, it is a foregone conclusion according to the Bible that everyone is a sinner. If it's our free will, why would the Bible assume that it's a foregone conclusion?

Romans 6:17-18 (emphasis mine)
"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

"How can God let us fall behind on our fate? If everything happens for a reason and everything is meant to be by the grace of God, then it's all happening right on schedule. How can we as humans suggest that God has made a mistake? Obviously, if its happening, then it must be the plan. Why can't we control how me get there, and God just make sure we arrive?"

First, you're positioning your comment to make it appear that I asked this question honestly. The point of my question was asserting that your statement didn't make sense.

"Why can't we control how me(sic) get there, and God just make sure we arrive?"

If God was making sure we arrived at his milestone at the right time (as you put it), then he was asserting his authority in away that denies us the freedom of our will. You're almost making my argument for me.

Re: Ok, and?

lil_cherub March 26th, 2007
That's because I don't fully disagree with you! I agree that God controls our lives. But to say he controls every single detail of our daily life is hard to imagine because the Bible implies we have so many choices.

We all eventually die, therefore we must all be sinners. Even Jesus died in an earthly sense, does that mean he sinned as well?

I know you both focus very much on the exact written message. Which means you both believe that this huge planet was created from start to finish in one week. I believe the Holy Bible is a collection of stories which were used to teach the general population about God in a manner that they would understand, and used scare tactics to secure their faith (such as you will go to hell and burn for eternity if you sin...). As a result, I study the Bible for the message, not the word for word break down. Just think of all the typos that must have happened with the monks over time.


Re: Ok, and?

nightskyre March 26th, 2007
"We all eventually die, therefore we must all be sinners. Even Jesus died in an earthly sense, does that mean he sinned as well?"

I'm just going to assume you didn't really think this question through before you asked it.

"All squares are red" - Does this mean all red things are square?

While it is vastly easier to describe the end of Christ's life as "death", you have to understand that the end of Christ's physical life wasn't like the end of your life or the end of my life. This is the account of the ending of Christ's life in each gospel.

Matthew 27:50 "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit."

Mark 15:37 "And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last."

Luke 23:46 "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last."

John 19:30 "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

You will see here, Christ gave up his spirit. This is something that we as regular humans are unable and powerless to do (otherwise those who are destined to heaven certainly would have left this world long ago)

"used scare tactics to secure their faith"

I never understood this statement. I've heard it a lot, but it doesn't make sense. Who exactly are you proposing did this? The Roman Catholic Church? Before the RCC, there was no singular church authority (with a single church head, a la the pope) who would seek to control groups of people. I mean, as someone astutely noted in my presence this past weekend, literacy is a fairly modern concept. Why write down a series of random laws written by people if those people are the ones that are going to be ruling the commoners anyway? Further, why would people want to scare someone to believe in something that doesn't gain the initiator? Why would we be taught to put Christ before everything? Don't you think if some higher authority (of men) wanted to control the common people they would want themselves to be exalted?

With regards to "typos", that's why there is so much analysis on the scriptural codexes (codices?). The King James version of the bible has verses that aren't in the ESV or the NASB. Why is this? Because the KJV was based on more recent manuscripts, and the ESV and NASB (and a few others) came later, when more manuscripts that were older were discovered.

There are hundreds if not thousands of biblical manuscripts available today. Of course, most of these are not complete, but there is enough overlap to check for errors in concurrently written manuscripts.

purly March 26th, 2007
Of course it's good. New glasses! :P

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